Page 58 of See How They Hide

“His partner was murdered,” Michael said. “In hindsight, should we have handled the questioning differently?”

“You couldn’t have known his mindset, and you weren’t aggressive or hostile. You gave him information, asked for information in return. It was a good interview.”

“Should we have held back the information regarding his partner’s murder?” Michael asked, still anguished about what happened.

Dean shook his head. “He had a right to know, and I don’t think he would have said anything of value to the investigation until he had confirmation one way or the other,” Dean said. “Don’t let his attempted suicide weigh on your conscience.”

Kara had intended to remain silent, but she wanted Dean’s “expert” opinion. Though she didn’t much care for so-called “experts” since often they had never worked in the field, she knew very little about cults.

“In your opinion,” Kara asked, “do you think that Andrew Gardner attempted to kill himself because of grief, or because of fear?”

“You mean fear of the cult?”

“Fear of talkingaboutthe cult. As if by speaking, he was going to be struck down by lightning.”

“‘The first rule of fight club is you don’t talk about fight club,’” Dean quoted.

Kara grinned. She couldn’t help herself—it was exactly what she’d been thinking.

Dean continued, “It’s difficult for me to determine his motivation at this point, not without more information about Havenwood as well as Mr. Gardner’s psychology. However, there are some basic psychological commonalities among those who have escaped this culture.”

He sipped water and continued, “Former cult members are often skittish, nervous, worried about retribution. They are quiet, introverted, and often isolate themselves alone or with a few close friends or family. They rarely share their experience in the cult, even if there was no violence. There are many reasons for this—sometimes, because they are embarrassed that they were drawn into what they now see as bad for them. Sometimes, because they feel foolish for joining the group in the first place. Sometimes, because they had a disquieting experience. Often, there is a financial motive, as they may have turned over their life savings to a cult and blame themselves for being manipulated. All this depends on the type of cult—did the cult cater to a deep value, such as religion? Or a political or moral view, such as survivalists or environmental protection? There are many different types of cults, and based on the limited information Andrew shared, I don’t have a sense yet of what Havenwood is.”

He looked down and shuffled some papers, then said, “Andrew was clearly fearful of the cult and believed they have the capability to kill, which tells me that during his time there, he saw violence, either as a witness or a participant. He absolutely believes that members of Havenwood killed the people you named, which suggests he knows an extensive amount about the cult and what they have done and are capable of doing. He lived there for a minimum of two years, and likely much longer.”

Kara absorbed everything Dean said. He had a calm, melodious voice and a command of his subject, without sounding like it was his word or the highway.

“I didn’t get a sense of what type of cult Andrew was talking about,” Kara said, “whether they had an agenda or not. But he wasn’t faking his fear.”

“I concur,” Dean said. “I don’t think we can know the cult purpose at this point, not without more information. But people who are scared—as opposed to being embarrassed because they lost their life savings or that they were manipulated into a sexual relationship or to do something that goes against their values—it’s generally that they were threatened and have reason to believe that the cult will live up to their threats. Andrew Gardner has witnessed violence.”

Michael asked, “How do we entice Riley to talk to us? She might not know what information she has, but she may know who is in charge, where they are located, what crimes the cult has committed. She’s acting both belligerent and scared. We didn’t threaten her, chase her, or arrest her, and she’s not under suspicion of murder. We know she was out of the country when the first four victims—including Morrison—were killed. She could walk out, but she hasn’t nor has she asked for a lawyer.”

“She might still walk out,” Dean said, “but she’s not going to trust the system, which means I doubt she’ll ask for a lawyer. She might be fearful of authority because the cult taught her not to trust outsiders. Or she’s fearful because she knows that she’s committed a crime by obtaining a false identity. Or, she’s done worse. But if she has the same foundation as Andrew, she is more fearful of the cult than of you.”

Dean paused, steepled his fingers under his chin as if thinking. Kara didn’t know if it was authentic, or if he knew he looked like a kindly, intellectual college professor when he did it.

“I would suggest that you be calm, firm, nonthreatening,” he continued. “I imagine, though this is based on my experience, not because I have interviewed Ms. Pierce, that threats won’t work. She’ll close up, feel isolated and alone. Being firm, clear, open, will likely elicit the most information. You’ll want to find out how she came to be in the cult, whether she grew up there, whether her family is still there, why specifically she is afraid. It won’t all come out at once.”

Catherine said, “We’ll have a video and mic so we can hear everything, and will provide guidance as the interview progresses. Michael, this time, you’ll wear the earpiece so I know we won’t be ignored.”

Kara bristled, but didn’t take the bait.

Michael didn’t say anything, and Kara was a bit irritated that he didn’t stand up for her. He knew as well as she did that Catherine’s micromanaging of interviews was counterproductive. If she wanted to be in an interview, she should join them in the field.

But Kara bit her tongue.

Dean said, “I’d also suggest that you find a natural stopping point. If she’s talking, let her talk. But if she clams up and firm but gentle prodding doesn’t get her to open up, give her a break. It’s getting late anyway. What are your plans for housing her? I don’t think it’s wise to keep her in a cell, but if you let her go, she’ll never come back on her own.”

“I’ll take her into protective custody,” Kara said. “There’s another female agent here, so between Agent Wagner and myself, we can keep her overnight in our hotel.”

She could see Catherine didn’t like that idea, but before she could object, Dean said, “A good plan. I’ll observe the interview and do some research. I may come out to Colorado if I feel I can be of assistance.”

Great, she thought sarcastically.

They ended the call and Michael said, “Hey, I know you’re mad.”

“Me? How can you tell?” She smiled tightly.

---